Why You Could Be Experiencing Pain During Sex with Leah Tassios
If you're listening to this podcast, then chances are you have a vulva, or you have sex with people with vulvas. Unfortunately, for many people with vulvas, sex can tend to be more painful than pleasurable. One in three women will experience pain during sex, while up to 17%, which is one in ten women, will be diagnosed with a related condition called Vaginismus. Women's pain is notoriously undervalued in the medical field, and anything to do with women's sexual function is seen as unimportant.
Today's guest Leah Tassios experienced first-hand the incredibly isolating, confusing, and painful condition. After many referrals, specialist appointments, and awkward conversations, Leah was eventually diagnosed with secondary Vaginismus. After several months of struggling to navigate treatment options, Leah overcame her condition and once again enjoyed pain-free sex. She has now developed a mobile app designed to guide and support users through their own experience with Vaginismus. If you've experienced any unwanted pain during sex yourself or had a partner express that they've been in pain, this episode is essential listening.
In this episode, you'll learn:
What is Vaginismus, and how would someone know they might have it
The causes of Vaginismus
What treatment options are available
The correlation between PSOC, Endometriosis & Vaginismus
The journey to recovery and more comfortable sex
This podcast is for YOU, so if you ever have any questions you’d like me to answer on the show, or topics you’d like me to cover – reach out to me on email here or over on Instagram @eleanorhadley
Links & Resources
Join the Embodied Course: Waitlist
To work with me 1:1 head to eleanorhadley.com/work-with-me
Vaginismus Article: https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/wellbeing/2021/07/03/vaginismus-womens-health/
Gina App Instagram: https://instagram.com/gina_app_?utm_medium=copy_link
GINA App: https://ginaapp.com/app
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Sensuality Academy Podcast!
The Sensuality Academy Podcast is edited and produced with thanks to Lucy Arellano. You can find her work at @_saltmedia.co
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Episode Transcript
Hello there my love's and welcome to Episode 48 of the Sensuality Academy podcast.
Chances are if you're listening to this podcast, then you have a vulva or you have sex with people with vulvas, and in this episode, we're discussing sexual pain and discomfort for vulva owners.
For many people, unfortunately, sex can tend to be more painful than pleasurable. In fact, one in three women will experience pain during sex, while up to 17%, which is one in 10. Women will be diagnosed with a related condition called Vaginismus. Vaginismus is a condition where the muscles around the vaginal canal involuntarily contract, which causes pain and discomfort upon penetration. If you've experienced any unwanted pain during sex yourself, or if you've had a partner expressed that they've been in pain, this episode is essential listening.
Now, unfortunately, women's pain is notoriously undervalued in the medical field. And anything to do with women's sexual function is seen as unimportant. But as our guest today shares there's shame and taboo associated with women and sex, society views sex for women as reproduction, not as pleasure and enjoyment. And I'm here with this podcast with my one-on-one coaching, my online courses, and all of my work to remind you that your sexual wellness is important. It's valuable, it's a crucial piece of the well being puzzle in your life. It's not something to be ignored.
So recently, my wonderful mum came across an article about painful sex and being a very big cheerleader of my work, she forwarded it to me thinking that it would be useful for me and for my clients. It was a very interesting article, and I will share the link in the show notes for you. It highlighted the work of Leah Tassios, and a new app that she's created that is designed specifically for sufferers of Vaginismus. It's called the GINA app. Once I read this article, I was inspired to reach out to Leah and invite her onto the podcast to share all about her own personal journey with discovering that she had Vaginismus, treating it herself and with other experts, and the creation of Gina as a result of what she discovered. I'm so thrilled to introduce you to Leah and to the Gina app, and I hope that this episode provides you with some insight into something that is surprisingly common. I want you to know that you are absolutely not alone if you've ever experienced sexual pain. And there are absolutely ways to treat it. If this episode resonates with you, please feel free to share it with your partner, with your lovers, with any friends that you think would benefit from learning more about Vaginismus. You can also find a link to the gene app and their Instagram account in the show notes. So now let's chat to Leah. Enjoy.
ELEANOR: Welcome to the Sensuality Academy podcast. Leah, it's such a pleasure to have you on here. And I'm very, very excited to talk all things painful sex and Vaginismus. with you.
LEAH: Thanks so much for having me.
ELEANOR: So let's get straight into it. We're talking all about sexual pain and discomfort in today's episode. So can you tell us how common is it to experience pain during sex?
LEAH: Unfortunately, it's so common for all of us. So the statistics really are that one in 10 people with a vagina will experience Vaginismus in their lifetime. And then one in three people will experience pain during sex at some point in their life as well. So we're really talking about something that is going to affect probably almost all of us at some point. And yeah, it's just super common.
Eleanor
I think that's so important for us to know, like straight off the bat that this is actually quite common. I think a lot of people can feel quite isolated, that they must be broken in some way I've had so many clients tell me that and feeling like they're really alone in this and that sex is meant to be just entirely filled with pleasure, and that if you're experiencing pain, and it's just something that's wrong with you. Right? So, what experiences? Have you had learning all about painful sex and people's experiences of it feeling quite lonely and isolating?
LEAH: Yeah, definitely, um, look, I think it all kind of starts with, I guess, our lack of sex education. So obviously, you know, growing up, I kind of was always told that, you know, sex will be painful at the start, but then you'll, you know, grow to enjoy it. And we kind of miss out on all the important conversations along the way about sexual pain and consent, and pleasure and all those kinds of things. So, I guess my experience was incredibly isolating, which I know that's common for everyone who kind of deals with this condition. But it was really confusing to me, because I had been able to be sexually active and had been kind of, I guess, enjoying sex, and being able to, you know, enjoy penetration and all those kinds of things for a number of years. And then, in 2017, I began to experience pain during sex with my partner at the time. And so I was really confused. And I went to see my doctor about it after like a couple of months. And the information I kind of received from my doctor as well was really confusing. My JP was really unsure about what was going on and kind of set me off to have a lot of tests. And I kind of, even from the kind of outside of that experience, I just kind of felt so isolated and confused. And then also really fearful about talking to anybody else about it, because I feel like I hadn't really kind of heard any kind of sexual pain narratives before. So it was incredibly isolating and really confusing. And I just felt like I had really kind of missed out on so much kind of sexual education and the conversation around sexual pain. I just yeah, had not been had not been included in that at all. So yeah, I felt really alone.
ELEANOR: Absolutely, I think that our lack of sex pleasure and consent to education is a huge reason that so many people feel so isolated in their experience with with sex with pleasure, with pain as well. And feeling like we can't talk about it because it is seen as so taboo. And as interesting that you mentioned, you know that there was this almost expectation that it's going to be painful. I remember, really quite being quite scared of my first time, I was very fearful, like I wanted to have my first time with someone and have that experience. But I was so scared that I was going to be painful. And I was gonna bleed everywhere. And I'd heard these horror stories of like, Oh my gosh, they've got to break through the hymen. And it's like this whole thing. And so I think when you go in with that mentality, of course, you're probably going to be climbing up a bit. Because you're like, oh, gosh, this is going to be painful. I'm not going to enjoy this. It's like some we've got to get over and done with, do you feel like this is something that can happen a lot of the time for people in their first sexual encounters?
LEAH: Oh, 100%. And I feel like, you know, it wasn't until I went to say, a sex therapist that I feel like I've really started to kind of unpack a lot of that thinking and that behavior and that understanding that I had about sex in the first place. So although my first experience wasn't painful, it kind of really showed me how much of a gap there is in what we kind of expect what we can experience and then down the line, you know, being able to talk about the type of pain that we're experiencing that we're feeling, I felt like I didn't really have the vocabulary, or I guess, the understanding to be able to say, you know, this is what I'm going through. Is this normal? So yeah, it's it's really hard when you don't have I guess, that basic kind of understanding about, about sex and sexuality and pleasure and pain, and all of that.
ELEANOR: Yeah, exactly. If you're not given that vocabulary, like you say, to understand that sex can be pleasurable, but that sex can be painful, and that that's something to look into. I think that people don't even go to that step. It's quite amazing that you realize, okay, this is not something that should be happening. And so I'm going to actually seek guidance and medical health. I think a lot of people out there would probably just deal with it or ignore it or shy away from even having penetrative sex as a result. Do you think that's a common experience?
LEAH: Oh, for sure. I think that was probably my first instinct was just to kind of push through it or deal with it in my own way. And, as I've said before, I kind of experienced virgin business for about 11 months, unfortunately, in the timespan of kind of how Comment it is and everybody else's experiences that's actually quite a short time frame. And so I feel like, you know, there are people who I've spoken to who have gone years without seeking treatment or kind of really understanding or having that first experience with their GP be really negative one. And that's kind of put them off from pursuing it further. So yeah, it all comes down to really having, I guess, your own kind of agency and control and taking control of your sexual health and your sexual experience, which I know a lot of people really struggle with. And I know you've talked about it in the past as well. But yeah, just being able to take that first step is a really scary one.
ELEANOR: Definitely. So can you tell us a little bit more about Vaginismus? In particular, like, what is it? And how would someone know that they might have it?
LEAH: Yeah, so there's, there's two types of Vaginismus. And I kind of defined Vaginismus, as a recurrent or persistent involuntary vaginal muscle spasm. So the muscle spasm causes pain, discomfort, sometimes the lingering burning feeling. And I guess, the kind of primary Vaginismus that a lot of people experience is where you haven't ever been able to tolerate any kind of penetration. So you know, whether it's using a tampon or or your first kind of sexual encounter involving penetration, you haven't ever been able to do that. So that's quite common. So secondary Vaginismus is where you've previously been able to tolerate penetration. And then an event has occurred, whether it's a sexual assault, whether it's giving birth could be medication that you've changed is a lot of different circumstances, and then it leads you to not be able to tolerate penetration anymore. So there's kind of two camps, but they both experienced the same kind of tightening sensation, vaginal spasm, and buildinggreen kind of burning or stabbing feeling in the vagina.
ELEANOR: Yeah, and what awful experiences to have when you are trying to experience pleasure, but you're experiencing pain that you're not wanting, you know, I can imagine how frustrating that could be. And I have my own experiences as well, which I'll share later. But I'd love to ask, what do you think? Or are you aware of the causes of Vaginismus? Do we know that?
LEAH: There's such a lack of research and understanding in this field, I feel a lot of the time diagnosis and kind of cause this kind of just left out, we kind of focus more on the just being able to tolerate penetration kind of side of things. And so I think seeing a sex therapist is so important in that aspect, because it really kind of leads you to understand, you know, how did I get here. And for a lot of people, it's really hard, because, you know, they may not be fearful of penetration, they may, you know, really be in the moment with their partner and really want to experience sex in that way. And it's kind of a disconnect between the mind and the body in that way. And so your, your, your physical side of things, you start to experience the pain and you're really confused, and then your mind kind of begins to anticipate that pain, and then anticipate, you know, kind of clenching up or the burning feeling or, or kind of stabbing sensation, and that kind of leads into a cycle of sexual pain. So it's really hard because you're dealing with both the physical and then kind of like, the mental side of things as well.
ELEANOR: So what you just described, is that what you call the pain fear loop.
LEAH: Yeah, that's right. So unfortunately, a lot of people kind of get stuck in this loop, where they're really trying to push past the pain and to experience penetration. And I mean, I speak from experience, when I say it's actually like the worst thing that you could do, because in order to kind of break that that pain cycle, you really just need to kind of take a step back and help your your mind and your body kind of unlearn that cycle of pain and not to have to anticipate it. And so trying to push through and create more kind of painful experiences is actually the opposite of what you're trying to do. So I think a lot of us, especially if you're in a relationship as well,you find yourself kind of wanting to push past it for your partner or kind of just wanting to have a quote unquote, normal sexual experience. And so we kind of persist in this idea of we just need to push past the pain and eventually it will go away. So
ELEANOR: Yeah, it's such a huge disconnect, like you said, between your brain and your body. Your body is telling you, this is not good. Don't do this. But yeah, your logical brain is like, Oh, no, no, I'm going to try. So, what treatment options are available for Vaginismus. You know, is there something that women or people with elders can do to start moving towards having less painful sex?
LEAH: There are so many options, and we cover all of them in the GINA app. So I think the first step really is to see your GP and you may need to go armed with the information already. So if you think that you may have Vaginismus, you, you probably going to have to go in there and say, This is what I'm experiencing, this is what I think it could be, could you please refer me to a specialist. So I think the things that I really found to be quite impactful was seeing a pelvic floor physiotherapist, who then taught me how to use vaginal dilators taught me how to kind of relax my body breathing techniques, stretching and different exercises. And then the other side of that is sexual therapy. So as I said before, being able to kind of unpack some of these kind of misconceptions around sex and to really understand how to kind of take control of the situation and to feel really comfortable and what I'm doing. And then you know, there's a whole range of other things as well, I really recommend kind of starting at the very start at the bottom with vaginal dilators and things like that, and then kind of progressing down there's different medications you can try. There's surgeries, there's Botox as well, there's kind of synergy studies that have been released recently talking about how Botox can be really beneficial to kind of loosen up some of the muscles and in that area. So look, there's a range of different treatment options. But I think it's really important that we remember Vaginismus is treatable. Like so many people go in thinking I'll never be able to be, you know, “normal”, but it's so treatable. And it's just really hard. I guess, just taking those first steps.
ELEANOR: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's like a huge key element. If anybody is experiencing painful sex listening to this, just know that yes, it is treatable, there are options for you. And that's why you created Gina app, isn't it?
LEAH: Yeah, that's right. So I kind of felt that there was a real kind of disconnect between what you could find online, which is all very kind of anatomically focused, kind of very medical terms, really confusing language. And then the other side of that is obviously there's, you know, groups on Instagram, and Facebook and Reddit threads, with people sharing their personal experiences. So I felt that there wasn't kind of a resource that was in between those two things where you could kind of feel supported, but at the same time, it was kind of helping you navigate that treatment journey. So that's why I decided to create an app and start talking about sexual pain, because I feel like there's definitely a larger conversation that needs to be happening in the public space. And although we've just started talking about endometriosis, so openly, you know, endometriosis, I think affects one in nine. And Vaginismus is one in ten, so it's really similar, and we just kind of need to have that same kind of public discourse going.
ELEANOR: I'm so happy that you brought that up, I was wanting to ask you about the correlation between things like endometriosis and pcls, and Vaginismus, or painful sex. I know, for me, I got diagnosed with endometriosis at the start of last year, and at the time, I had been experiencing really, really debilitating periods every month for the past year or so since going off the pill. And I had, I hadn't had any issues with painful sex. But then around that time that I was getting diagnosed and realized what was happening, I suddenly was having very, very painful sex, and I had to sort of stop to my partner, I can't do this. It's really, really painful. I want to connect, I want to do this, but it's hurting. Do you think that there's a correlation between these two?
LEAH: Yeah, that's a good question. I think, look, personally, I think there probably is, I also think there's a correlation between tampons as well, so many people telling me about, you know, really painful experiences and not being able to use tampons. I just think there's such a lack of research and understanding in this area that, you know, we really need some, some really big studies and some research coming out of that to really begin to kind of understand it. I agree with you. I think there's there's a range of things that that we haven't kind of looked into and I definitely think you know, painful sex and endometriosis, definitely linked.
ELEANOR: In terms of the lack of research, this is something that I see a lot when it comes to especially like cis women, our health issues. Do you think that medical misogyny is to blame for the lack of research on women's sexual function?
LEAH: Oh, 100% Don't even get me started on the amount of money that is thrown at, you know, male sexual dysfunction and then the complete lack for women so it's just I mean, it's a huge problem. I feel like if erectile dysfunction affected women we'd have, you know, so many more resources and, and money thrown at the problem. 100% agree with you. It's a huge problem. And I think also in that space as well, it's something that I've noticed as the more kind of research I've done into intervention, business and sexual pain. The narrative is very much focused on women and being able to have penetrative sex with your with your partner. And I think that there's a real need to have some some more kind of queer content and make sure that it's really quick, queer friendly, because I think it's, it's unrealistic to expect that we all just want to have penetrative sex, you know, some people worry about fertility, other people worry about using a tampon or or menstrual care. So it's a wider issue.
ELEANOR: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really great reframe. It's not just about being able to have a penis inside your vagina, is that it's incredibly heteronormative. But there are absolutely so many other reasons why you don't want to experience that vaginal pain, obviously, nobody wants to experience pain at all. So I remember actually, when you bring up tampons, I remember in high school, when I first got my period, I had no interest in using tampons that just felt too intimate, too scary. I thought that was gonna be really painful. I didn't understand. Just wasn't interested, you're a teenager. And so I was just using pads. But I remember in a health class once, I think the teacher was talking about like, Oh, yeah, if you open up a tampon packet, there's all these instructions are hidden. One girl just piped up, and she's like, it's not that hard. You just put it in. And that comment made me go, oh, oh, like, Is there something wrong with me? And then later in university, I also remember another comment that’s stuck with me. Someone said, Oh, well, if you can take a dick, you can take a tampon and I was like, but it's so fascinating that we have this idea, Oh, this should be normal. And if anything is not working for you, if you're experiencing pain, then there's just something wrong with you. You're broken, but also don't talk about it because it's so taboo.
LEAH: Oh, I completely agree. And I've been your experience with tampons. So similar to mine, actually I wrote a blog post about this recently, on GINAapp.com. And I just, I felt that growing up, it was like, I was such an outlier for not wanting to use a tampon and not being able to use a tampon. And I guess as time goes on, and you unpack those notions and you go, why does it even matter? Why are we discriminating or thinking less of someone based on what menstrual product they use? It really doesn't matter. I still don't like tampons. I can use a moon cup now. And I'm fine with that. But I still like damn tampons.
ELEANOR: Yeah, I've kind of gone like full circle with the tampons. I got into it for a while. Then I discovered moon cups and free bleeding with period undies and things like that. And I was like, Oh, yeah.
LEAH: Period undies are great. I love period undies now.
ELEANOR: Yeah, absolutely. So I had a student of mine who explained to me that she has, a great time kind of starting off with penetrative sex, but it's about 10 minutes in that she starts feeling that pain. Is that a normal side effect or impact of Vaginismus? Or do you think that could be something different?
LEAH: That's hard to say? I think there's definitely a question about what kind of pain that they're experiencing. So, is it kind of a friction? Do you just need to reapply some lubrication? Or is it kind of more like a tightening of the muscles, a bit of a spasm? Yeah, interesting. Definitely kind of tried to be more in tune in the moment to figure it out. As I said before, it's kind of the vocabulary you need to kind of describe the pain that you're experiencing which a lot of us don't have, so I think definitely check in and try to see if it's, what kind of pain it is and what kind of sensation you're experiencing. But I mean, I wouldn't rule out Vaginismus.
ELEANOR: Yeah, absolutely. Then especially if it's something that is recurring. I think that's a great point as well, maybe you need some more lube. Lube is so wonderful. I think we don't highlight how epic lube is. It increases pleasure so much. It's so much potential. So I wanted to ask you as well for people who are in partnered relationships, and they're experiencing this pain on penetration. What do you recommend for people to have this sort of discussion with their partners? How would they go about explaining to them this is the pain that I'm experiencing? And this is how we can work on it together?
LEAH: Yeah, I think definitely explaining the sensation and the pain that you're feeling is really important. I also think I would just recommend taking a break. Sex is so much more than penetration and taking a break for a penetration can be a really great way to connect, especially if you're experiencing pain, definitely discuss what your notions of sex are, what things make you comfortable, what things make your partner comfortable, try to focus on them for a little bit. And then definitely try to seek some help from you know, pelvic floor, physiotherapists, a sex therapist, your GP, a gynecologist to really kind of focus on that pain that you're experiencing. But I think it's important that, you feel comfortable enough in your relationship to talk about pain, I feel like a lot of us don't have that connection, or were too afraid that it will, you know, scare someone off or end or relationship or, or, you know, be so detrimental in so many ways. But I think it's just, a basic just to be able to talk about it. I feel like I saw a really good quote the other day that said, if you're having sex, you should be talking about sex. And I was like, Oh, yeah, a great, but it didn't, it took me a while to connect that with, you should be talking about sex with your partner. Like with your friends, or with your doctor or like with whoever you should be talking about it with your partner. So yeah, I think it's just really important to remember that.
ELEANOR:1,000% I think communication is like thekey, you can have such intimate, connected sex or when you discuss it, discuss your desires, discuss anything that comes up and what you're wanting and what you don't like as well. I think sometimes what gets in the way is our ego and our fear of hurting our partner. So for any partners who may be listening, who are with someone who's experiencing painful sex, what advice would you give them? What do they need to keep in mind?
LEAH: Oh, that's a good question. I think, you know, obviously checking in and open communication during sex is great. Let's open that up to before and after sex as well, you know, saying how is that experience for you? Or before you begin saying what, you know, what's off limits today? Or, or what are you not feeling comfortable with, I think it's also great when or when a partner can not only understand the pain, but kind of go on that journey with you. So you know, asking you about your treatment and or what you know, you did today with your with your pelvic floor therapist, or your sex therapist or just making sure that you feel supported. I know a lot of physical therapists even recommend having your partner come in for a session so they can see what you're working on and what you're doing. A lot of people don't feel comfortable with that. And that's, that's totally fine. But you know, just even opening up that as an option. So they need to understand that it's not all in your head. And this isn't something that you can just pretend isn't happening or push through. But I think my favorite question to ask a partner always is what would you do if the roles were reversed? So what would you be wanting to feel supported? And, and to feel comfortable? So trying to provide that or have that conversation is really important?
ELEANOR: That's a great one. I think that's really powerful. Put your own self in their shoes? Like how would this feel if I was experiencing painful sex, because especially for penis owners, if a lot of people were experiencing painful sex to the degree that a lot of women valva owners are, it would be the number one topic and it would be funding thrown at it left, right and center. So absolutely a really good empathy building exercise there to understand what this could be like? And what would I need in terms of support as well? So in your journey, you said that you experienced this Vaginismus, the secondary badnesses for about 11 months before getting diagnosed and realizing what was going on. You saw pelvic floor, physios and sex therapists. And what's the journey been like, since you've done that work?
LEAH: I think I need to also include, this is what scares a lot of people, I went through a breakup as well during all of this So, you know, a relationship ending when you have Vaginismus just feels like the worst possible experience ever. And I'm here to tell you that it's not. It was actually like the best thing that happened to me because it definitely allowed me to, to end that pain cycle and that fear kind of loop that I was in. And then, there's the other side of things where you begin dating with Vaginismus. So, being able to have that conversation with a casual sexual partner is very intimidating. And, it was for me too, but I think after the first couple of times, you have that conversation, you feel a lot more confident in what you're saying and your experience, and just being able to say, you know, I'm not comfortable doing this, and that should totally be okay. So I think that was a really big part of it for me. But now I'm in a very happy long term relationship, I've got an amazing partner who's super supportive, I don't experience pain during sex anymore, which is fantastic. But I also know that it's kind of given me the skills to be able to make sure that I feel comfortable and everything that I'm doing. So even if it's not paid, there may be some things that you know, I'm not okay with or my partner is not okay with and so just being able to have that conversation and to have those skills to be able to navigate, you know, the sexual journey after that is really, really important. So yeah, I've had a really positive experience. And I'm very fortunate, I know, that's not the case for a lot of people. But I think it's important, as well, that you can remain optimistic, it's really hard to say, but it's one of those things where it's like, there is support available, and you just need to re-frame for yourself, like what pleasurable sex looks like. So again, just not all kinds of penis focused or centered and all about penetration. It's so much more than that. So, I've had a long and I wanted to say beautiful, but I don't know if that's quite the right term, about a long journey to get to where I am today. I wouldn't change anything, because it's definitely helped me be able to express myself sexually. That's something I never had previously.
Eleanor: That's so amazing to hear. I love the idea of, you know, such a journey with boundaries and a really beautiful practice in learning how to set those boundaries and maintain those boundaries around what you do and don't desire sexually. But also reframing your sexual experience, just sounds like such a nice kind of way to look at it, like a nice little silver lining for something that could be quite traumatic, I imagine. So with the GINA app, I imagine that there's a lot of people out there who might not have the resources to access you know, sex therapists, physio, pelvic floor, physios and things like this might not have the means to go to the doctor about this type of topic, especially if there's, you know, religious factors or anything that kind of getting in the way from them getting treatment. So is Gina app, something that people can use and work through Vaginismus in their own time?
LEAH: Yeah, definitely. The app is there to support you and to inform you, everything from I've started experiencing pain during sex, what could this be to? I've got an appointment with a physiotherapist, what's going to happen in my first appointment? So I think the fear of the unknown is what holds a lot of people back. So you know, what's going to happen in my appointment? What am I going to have to talk about, you know, will there be a physical examination, like what happens if I feel pain, what happens if I don't feel comfortable discussing something or doing something. So GINA sets out to make sure that you feel informed and in control, and then also, we touch on treatment, obviously, but then we also go into the other aspects. So you know, feeling depressed, feeling isolated, feeling you don't know how to talk about your pain or your experience. We have some conversation starters in there, which are really bright. So how you can have a conversation with a sexual partner, or how you can have a conversation with your GP or, you know, a friend or or someone who's supporting you. So yeah, we touched on a lot of things we touch on lube, we touch on dilators. We talk about meditation and breathing exercises, there's so many topics, and we're updating them all the time as well. So you'll get a little notification of your app when we decide to put some new content on there. It's really something that I think will support you in that journey. I know for a lot of people Vaginismus can feel overwhelming, and we just need that kind of, you know, little kind of soft touch to support every now and then or, or, you know, just pulling out your phone and having a read through through a different topic or a different treatment option can make you feel really calm and grounded and feel more in control that this is taking over your entire life.
ELEANOR: So powerful. I'm going to put the links in the show notes in the show description, to the app, and to all of the resources as well. It's been such a pleasure having you on the show, Leah, and thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom about painful sex and Vaginismus. And for the work that you're doing with the GINA app. It's really wonderful.
LEAH: Thank you, and thank you so much for the work that you're doing. I feel like it's so important that we, you know, connect our sensuality and our sexual experience with our mind and our body and everything that's happening. So yeah, it's really important.
ELEANOR: Thank you so much. Thank you again for coming on the Sensuality Academy podcast.
