Identity & Bisexuality with Anna Kochetkova
Compulsory heterosexuality has been ingrained into us since we were born. Although more conversations around bisexuality and everything else outside of what society deems as 'normal' have recently begun to open up, much of our conditioning comes into play when we're even starting to question and allow ourselves to explore our sexuality.
Today's guest Anna is a Russian-born Australian author and a passionate bi-plus activist based in Sydney. Anna is the Bi & Prejudiced Instagram space creator, which helps celebrate multi-sexual attraction, human diversity, and mental health. In this episode, we speak about the stereotypes often associated with bisexuality, the differences between how bi men and women are perceived, the endless labels and their importance, the rise in representation, and so much more.
In this episode, you'll learn:
Anna’s experience with coming out later in life
The impact of representation
Bi-Sexuality & Stereo Types
Should we be identifying with labels?
The conditioning received about differences in sexuality
This podcast is for YOU, so if you ever have any questions you’d like me to answer on the show, or topics you’d like me to cover – reach out to me on email here or over on instagram @eleanorhadley
Links & Resources
Join the Embodied Course: Waitlist
To work with me 1:1 head to eleanorhadley.com/work-with-me
Bi & Prejudice IG: https://www.instagram.com/biandprejudice/
Buy the book: https://www.debutbooks.com.au/bookstore/p/bi-prejudice-by-anna-kochetkova
Disclosure documentary about trans representation in media: https://www.disclosurethemovie.com/about
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Sensuality Academy Podcast!
The Sensuality Academy Podcast is edited and produced with thanks to Lucy Arellano. You can find her work at @_saltmedia.co
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Episode Transcript
Welcome to Episode 50 of the Sensuality Academy podcast.
So over my 50 episodes, one of my most popular ones has been Episode Number 24 on Bisexuality and Sexual fluidity, the amount of DMS that I received and continue to receive about that episode absolutely warms my heart. And it seems as though the topic of bisexuality is one that resonates deeply for many of you. And so, I'm very excited to share this episode today with you where we're revisiting the topic. With my wonderful guest, Anna Kochetkova. Anna is a Russian born Australian author, power tests and a passionate bi+ activist based in Sydney. Anna is the creator of the Bi and prejudiced Instagrams space which helps celebrate multi sexual attraction, human diversity and mental health and as book of the same name Bi and Prejudice is due for release on October 4, and I was lucky enough to get an advanced copy to read prior to our interview, and it is a really beautiful piece of work. Anna shares candidly about her experience with coming out later in life, which is often the way for many of us, the things that shaped her identity and the all too familiar questioning that typifies the bisexual experience. In our chat, we spoke about the stereotypes often associated with bisexuality, and the differences between how Bi men and women are perceived, internalized by phobia, the endless labels and the importance of them, the unicorn trope, the rise in representation, and so much more. I really hope that you love this episode. And if so, please do go ahead and leave a rating and a review of the podcast in your podcast app, it would mean the absolute world to me. Okay. Without further ado, here's Anna.
ELEANOR: All right. Welcome to the Sensuality Academy podcast. And it's such a pleasure to have you here. I had such a lovely time reading through Bi and Prejudice. There was so much in there that resonated with me. And I know that will resonate deeply with my audience as well. So thank you for coming on and joining us today.
ANNA: Oh, I'm very excited to be here. Thank you so much.
ELEANOR: My pleasure. So something in your book that you talk about is all about stereotypes. And I think that we can't really talk about the topic of bisexuality without addressing the multiple stereotypes that we hear all about. And that kind of impact our experience of being bisexual of coming out as bisexual. And it's something that I think most people who resonate with the term bisexuality or feel that their sexuality is not necessarily strike has come up against. So I wanted to ask you, what do you think has contributed to this messaging? And how did it impact you personally as well?
ANNA: Yeah, that's a really good question. I've been really wondering about why there's so much stigma and misunderstanding around what bisexuality is. And instead of allowing space and time to actually discuss it and have conversations and ask more questions, we create sometimes those ideas of what we think it is, and then they just get repeated. And I think that's what happened many times, somewhere in the past along the way, instead of researching a bit more, they'd be asking more questions, I feel that mistakes were made. And then they were repeated again and again. And I find that difficult in my experiences, and I found it very difficult at the very beginning, especially because the first time I even mentioned bisexuality without actually using the word Initially, I was just describing experiences. And I would straight away have reactions of things like you can't be intrusted, or tell me more about all the crazy sex stuff that you do, which wasn't even in a conversation, and it's asking you for so much information that I haven’t shared yet. And it just was so many things that were straightaway made me feel like I have to explain, I have to do so much work now. So much heavy lifting. And this is just sexuality. Well, while it's such an important part of my life, it's just one part. And yet, here is so much work. So it was a lot easier sometimes to hide, not talk at all. And this way, we don't get to actually talk about it. And there's other misunderstandings and errors, they just continue to repeat again and again.
ELEANOR: Absolutely, and I think some of you mentioned in your book was the perception of people who are bisexual as being contagious, or weird or unnatural, in some way. And I think, of course, a huge contributor to that messaging, is the hetero normativity. And fight. Yeah, compulsory heterosexuality that is ingrained into us since we're born really that that is the norm, that is the default, in a way. And anything else outside of the binary outside of what society deems to be, “normal”, is weird. And I think that this is something that can have such an impact on everybody, especially those who identify as outside of what is, “normal”. Feeling like we are weird in some way. And I think that this is why so many people come out at such a later stage in their life, like you and I, because we've had to grapple with it being seen as wrong and us being seen as wrong. How have you reconciled with that?
ANNA: Yes, I think this is very true. And I think you know, we also come to life. And very early on, we already learned that it's not quite safe to talk about your experiences and feelings, you might not have a word bisexual yet. And it might be just a crush on a friend. Or it might be some other experience, I can be feeling and not even understanding yet, what is this I'm feeling. But I really can see in the movies, and through my peers and my community, I just can see already that this is not very safe to discuss. There's just not enough places to discuss it. And that's why it also made me so so difficult for myself, it was such a difficult experience to put on any label. And to be honest, for a very long time, I didn't want to hide. I didn't want any labels, I didn't know there was a label as well. And I realized that everything was defaulted to your one sexuality. And then because I think the rainbow community, especially gays and lesbians, were fighting for the rights for so long, we somehow established now two spaces, not a very binary world with two spaces where you fall into the default of heterosexuality, or you are opposite of that. And that says, and so there were no other other choices. And that was actually challenging, because I didn't feel like I was fitting into any of them. But also I could see how in my place where I was growing up, lesbians and gays, that space was dangerous. I didn't want to belong to it. So I didn't want to be accidentally mistaken or misunderstood by people. So that was another space I didn't want to touch because there's not enough safety in there in the conversations. And so falling into the default of heterosexuality seemed easy. But it is such a big toll on mental health and physical health as a result. So it affected actually all areas of our life.
ELEANOR: I think a lot of people presume that the topic of sexuality is almost like a luxury like any other and like all you don't need to talk about that. That's not something that's necessary to discuss, right. And this is because of course, the topic of sex itself is so taboo in something that you do mention in your book, which I really resonated with is just because the word bisexual has sexual in it doesn't mean that it's all about your sex life. For me, of course, I'm a sex educator, I teach all about sex. I think it's a really important part of our lives. But the fact that sexuality and your sexual preferences and orientation gets so wrapped up in just what do you do in bed with a person and that's what people are thinking about? You know, I think so often, people are getting so exasperated by what they refer to as the gay agenda and like, Oh, stop telling us about, you know, your sex life and like, we're not really we're just saying like, we're humans and we can love other people and different genders and like, just let let us do that. That is it being this really, really binary issue. And I love that you brought up the topic of labels. Because labels I think there's a lot of people out there now are getting very exasperated by the sheer number of what they perceive to be new labels when it comes to identity. And the question often comes up, like, do we actually need labels? And I mean, I personally find this a very, very nuanced and personal decision whether or not you label yourself. And it's something that I think was really wonderful that you wrote in your book was that labels symbol and identity is actually assert our they help us to assert our right to exist. And I think that's powerful to have a group or an identity that you can resonate with and say, yes, this, this helps me feel a sense of belonging. So I'd love for you to expand a little bit on your idea of labels. Should we be identifying with labels? Does it matter if someone says they're bisexual or non? What's the importance?
ANNA: That’s so interesting? It's such a good question, because heterosexual people have been showing their sexuality. From the beginning of times, they're holding hands, they're kissing and making out in a class, they don't need to explain with it. And they are getting married in public, they’re doing all the things all the time, and they actually talk about sexual. And whether that's movies or personal conversations with the pub, but they talk about it, they always express it. But once there's another sexuality that they feel unsure about, I heard that as well. Somebody did tell me, it's great that you found it wonderful. Why do you need to talk about, like, who cares just be you. And it feels really well meaning and be you, go for it, it's awesome. But just don't tell me about it, I don't really need to know. And exactly because of that, we need to have the labels. And it is interesting, because personally, I would love to have no labels. It's just Anna, I just live, this is what I love. But this is what I do. But I feel the need for those labels, because then I can assert that I actually exist. And also, if I don't have a label, somebody else would come in and give me a label, and they would usually mislabel. And it can be actually damaging and hurtful, especially when it comes to sex. And when it comes to medical space, and mental health, all those areas suddenly become difficult to either access or that difficulty getting the right treatments or support. So for that reason, identifying self is really, really important. And also having expression of self is just wonderful for mental health, being able to just say, this is who I am, instead of that struggle inside of my head, I do I fit into this box to work it into another one. And I was just having a conversation with someone actually who told me that they were doing quizzes on being bisexual enough, and eventually got stressed out. And I think we've got exactly institutions and organizations are telling us this is what your sexuality is. And it can be helpful when we really don't know what to do and where to go. But we actually feel it, we actually know quite early. And that's why things just the lack of the safe places to be able to explore it and hear self is where the trouble stuff so very, very early on, and not having labels saw early on, that makes it just more difficult with every new year. So definitely love that there's so many labels. And that's actually another thing with having so many labels, even though I feel like bisexuality really homes, many other identities within it. There's intricacy and nuances of having pansexual or bisexual, or demisexual, or asexual and all of those, they add detail to people's experiences. And that's why I welcomed them. And I think that it's great to add even more detail if that needs to be. But really both humans and not just for being very similar, but also so different. And I really really love it.
ELEANOR: Yeah, I think it's a powerful practice to have different identities and labels available to explore. Because, you know, we are fluid in nature. I think that a lot of the time. The confusion comes with, particularly the view that Oh, well you just are straight. And I that's it and you never question that. Right? And it can be so confusing when you begin to question it and you're like, Oh gosh, I'm not meant to. But if you have different labels that are available in different communities that are available, you can start to understand and also you know, not taking on this role of the It has to be rigid. Like, I have to decide now that I am bisexual. And that's what I am. Because I think that there is so much room, particularly the sexuality to be fluid and to go actually know, maybe this level fits me better or maybe I want to explore. And I think that sometimes the beauty is in that fluidity and to say I want to explore regardless. And I know that a lot of people who have potentially identified as bisexual friends in my life have sort of said, actually, I'm more identify as fluid now, and I don't want to box it in. And I just think that it's really nice to be able to have that, that freedom to choose, rather than there is a binary and you have to be one or the other. Or you can only be one because there is only one option. And everything else is, you know, a sin or whatever other kind of conditioning we've received about differences in sexuality.
ANNA: Absolutely, yeah. And you mentioned how it is having all those identities, so I can look at them, try them on, see, where did they fit me today to more than that I change. And that experience is one experience. And then sometimes there's another one, when others also look at those labels and say, to me, you don't seem like you fit into that one, maybe you should consider that. And that's again, the problem of trying to fit others into some boxes, because we want to feel control. Or at least this is how it really feels to me. But I want to let people have the freedom of labeling and then give enough space for others as well to use those labels if they want to use them. And just to take a step back and, and have a conversation, instead of saying, hmm, you're not quite fitting into that, I'm not sure you're bisexual.
ELEANOR: Yeah, I think it is sometimes a bit too much policing when it comes to it. And I know that a lot of people have told me since my previous episode about bisexuality, but they didn't know whether or not they were allowed to claim like we said before your friend taking these quizzes? Am I bisexual enough? You know, can I claim it? If I haven't actually been with someone of the same gender? Am I allowed to if I've only had these experiences as opposed to those experiences, but I think that a really, really great thing to do is to kind of flip it on its head and be like, well, when you were a teenager and you hadn't even had your first kiss? Did you believe you are straight? You know what I mean? it because it is this compulsory heterosexuality. Oh yeah, of course, we are just assumed. And there's not often as much confusion around oh my gosh, if I like the opposite sex or gender, it's, it's just assumed like, yeah, that's what you will like, and I'm not going to ask you, if you have a first kiss. If you've actually slept with someone, what have you done? How many people, does it count? We're not taking score in that way when it comes to straightness. And so why do we need to do that to prove our bisexuality?
ANNA: Exactly, there's no stretch checklist. But that's an interesting idea.
ELEANOR: Definitely, we don't need any too much pressure.
ANNA: Oh, absolutely. And you saw right. Actually, I hear that so much as well. So often people say, I just don't feel like I quite fit into this. Am I bisexual enough? And I read a bunch of surveys on Instagram as well with my community, giving them different scenarios and asking them whether they thought those people and those scenarios specifically were bisexual. And there's no right or wrong answer, actually. But I found the most suitable one was, I don't know, there's not enough information. It's just one experience. And it may be bisexual, maybe not. And then somebody also told me, because it's me in all of those scenarios, and I'm bisexual, all of those scenarios are going to be bisexual, full stop, and then really loved it. Like there's different ways of looking at it. I think just allowing a bit of space and allowing people to have this experiences and labeling them is so beautiful.
ELEANOR: Yeah, absolutely. At the end of the day, you get to choose however you identify. It's not necessarily up to anybody else to tell you even if you're listening to this episode, and you're thinking, Oh, I don't know if I'm BI are they telling me that I am. You get to decide that is entirely your choice. But I wanted to talk about you know, in your book, you sort of describe the the journey to towards coming out and the experiences that you had had with women, but not necessarily claiming your bisexuality. One part where you said, you know, I'm a woman who finds women beautiful. And I was actually having a chat with someone that I'm seeing just over the weekend, and we were we were connecting over the fact that we'd always just been like, well derr. Doesn't everybody think women are beautiful? And prior to realizing that I was, in fact, sexual. I was just like, Oh, I just thought this was everybody's experience. Like, yeah, I date men, I sleep with men. But of course, I find women incredibly attractive. And yes, I have made that with someone. Yes, I've had a couple of threesomes and yes, like, of course, but I never allowed myself to question. Perhaps, is that indicating something about my sexuality? Because I just thought it was the norm, like, women are beautiful. Is that not just the fact?
ANNA: Exactly. I agree with you. And I think this is actually perfect. And I think in an ideal world, that's exactly how it is. Isn't that just our business, that women are beautiful, or whatever, the gender or whatever the sexy find was most interesting, almost beautiful. And yes, it was, it was such a journey. And as I was saying earlier, I was really trying to hide there was so many other things that I was paying attention, so many other things that matter to me. And I really wanted to hide this little thing, even though I wasn't looking at it. As I have this little thing I have to hide. It's just was something I wasn't paying attention or looking at. Even though my experiences with remember, always were there. But everyone around me treated me as if this is Anna being maybe a bit drunk, maybe a bit wild, maybe just having a good time. While watching her doing this. So this is fabulous. Obviously, that's not their vibe or anything else. It's just Anna doing this thing. And it was playing into me feeling safe enough staying in that place. And it was saying, but no, hold on. It actually means something to me. It is also because I thought were now I think looking back that those relationships that I was involved with just felt rather toxic and very sudden, and very urgent and very in the moment, but not entirely enjoying them, but more performing. That's why I also didn't dare to say, hold on. Maybe that's how I felt it was more of fulfilling some sort of role that I did not create for myself at all, it was there and I just slipped myself into it. And that's why it was so confusing. Later on looking back, it of course made so much more sense. But at the time I was floating between feeling in those shoes or playing those roles, but also having feelings and not quite understanding what that all means. Am I meant to have feelings? Does it change who I am if I have feelings, the first time I felt really strong about someone. And they've done a story of one of the stories that actually didn't make it into the book. But the very first time I really felt strongly about someone I was so scared. I felt that that is going to change my identity. Somebody is going to look at me differently. Should I even accept that this happened? And I had the whole whole conversation in my head because of all those past experiences as well.
ELEANOR: Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, it's amazing how much our conditioning comes into play when we're starting to even question and allow ourselves to open up to am I? maybe? maybe I'm not straight and actually questioning that so much comes up. And a huge part of my work and my coaching is always questioning your conditioning. And it can be such a confronting process to realize all I have received these messages and you actually share in your book so many messages that you received growing up about anything queer being wrong, even especially in Russia, it sounded like it was incredibly harsh punishments for being seen to potentially be gay and to actually say and admit that you're a gay was punishable when you're growing up so I can imagine how that rhetoric would have ingrained in you and push down your ability to open up.
ANNA: Yeah, I love how you mentioned encouraging people to question their conditioning instead of asking people to question self so I feel there's a lot especially put on cis women to question themselves because we went through this time of being hysterical, being crazy, being institutionalised. And during those experiences we’re always around questioning yourself and thinking there is something wrong with you. Maybe you need to do better, go to self help, better yourself, a different fitting. But instead, questioning conditioning and questioning dominant narrative and question stories were told. And just sitting with the self and feeling what is right, is those things that were told me abroad or how I feel is right and just figuring this out, not an overnight thing for sure. But I really love that encouragement. And I think on the pages of this book, there's so many stories that I think are just flashing lights of indoctrination. It's just story after story that shows how I thought and how I felt. And a lot of those stories when I was writing that was so cringy because I looked at them back and thought, oh my god, no way I was thinking that there's no way I was doing this. This is just so bizarre. I feel so different today, why did this happen? And all those conversations in my head, those were the stories I was told and I bought it, I listened to them, I followed them. Growing up in Russia was interesting in a way that I didn't really question very much. Survival was a lot more important even while covering my ears in the community. I didn’t know of any queer people. This is why I had this story of having guests in our summer house to have them coming along. That was a huge secret, that probably still is. I haven’t asked my family for such a long time but this is a little secret, not to hang out, not to tell people when you know someone even though man in drag is one of the most favourite entertainment types in Russia or in the community that I was living. It’s so confusing.
ELEANOR: Yeah, absolutely. You get shown this is ok for entertainment purposes but not for a real human being in our community. I want to talk to you more about representation because we are currently in a time where LGBTQIA+ rights and topics are being spoken about so much more than they ever have up until this point, trans rights are making headlines and I feel there has been a lot of progress, of course we still have so far to go, but there has been a lot of progress and in a result I keep hearing the rhetoric, particularly from the boomer generation, people who are more conservative saying, suddenly everybody is Bi, everybody is queer, everybody is non binary, that is just the trend. I think this is the common thing when status quo starts to get questioned, people who are stuck in it and severance to the status quo really fighting for the status quo they get exasperated where they think this is just the trend, everybody is getting on the trend but personally I see it as a direct indication of the impact of representation and the fact that we are seeing more representation in the media, in television, in music, of queer people being openly queer, people being non binary, coming out, being openly trans, so many different identities and intersections happening and being celebrated in the media, in society I think that it’s only natural that it allows people to see themselves in an example where they have never seen before. It wasn’t until recently, I can’t quote the exact time or movie, relatively recently I have started noticing on shows I’m watching there are more storylines about queer folk, there’s more use of pronouns just in the general rhetoric. I think that all these things help us to feel safe to be who I am. Not what’s cool now because we know that you get mistreated, you get eye rolling, all the discrimination but it seems to me. Coming from a place of privilege being a white woman in the west it seems easier, not easy but easier to accept your identity and to explore without fearing as much as in the past.
ANNA: Yes, I think it gives more opportunities. It’s very empowering to believe without seeing harass. That’s why it took us awhile to figure out if there was virus’ or bacteria on hudsea. It’s interesting that without enough for a presentation there is still absolutely right, there is so much more to go. Having an emphasis on their existence is unnoticeable and doesn’t exist. I grew up with sellaroom and I thought that they were all attracted to everyone because of the closeness of their relationships. It’s 20 years later I was reading about people suspecting some of the characters being Bisexual and there was so many conversations about the characters of that cartoon but I saw this cartoon when I was five, ten, sixteen, I always had it back in Russia. I’ve always looked at those characters, I thought that this is what people do, they are just very close with each other and especially since they are warriors and women warriors. It was also so binary because I’m now looking back thinking are they where we’ve been? Not enough main character that represents your experiences and now I feel there’s more representation that main characters there and it’s not specifically a dramatic fallout or a horrible survival or something I’ve learnt from this horrendous experience I had. It’s a little bit more as we want to say “normal” because it’s not normal it’s accessible, it’s possible, it’s there. They go about their day and they do things and they happen to be bisexual. It’s just one part of many of others. They may have superpowers, triple more exciting than sexuality just adding that, showing them as main characters, doing everything that everyone is doing. Now they exist and I can relate to them so I’m really excited about that. It’s a documentary on Netflix where they were talking about transfer presentation in the films.
ELEANOR: That is an amazing film. I can’t remember the name of it but I’m going to put it in the show notes, it’s wonderful.
ANNA: It’s also escaped my mind as well but it’s showing representation of transpeople in the movies when we thought that it didn’t exist. We didn’t know it, we didn’t see it was there and sometimes we read about movies and animations as well and there is a history of people trying to put more queer characters into they get a little bit ripped off or they get a little bit afraid. This was something that always existed but now we have more of it and more importantly it’s amplified because such big names as Netflix have picked them up. I actually think Netflix was one organisation that first put movies there that were so easily accessible out there.
ELEANOR: It’s so powerful, I know that for me being aware of more clear issues and consuming more mainstream media that is more inclusive that was a huge help to me. Realising and giving myself permission to come out. Do you feel that if there was more representation and open discussion on sexuality for you, do you think you would have been comfortable coming out earlier in life?
ANNA: I think that it contributed to more confidence. It's still probably rather difficult in the community, in the country where it's punishable by law even though it’s hidden and not entirely explained so you don’t even know if you are breaking the law. So it’s still difficult but if there was more representation maybe that meant this country would have been different. Maybe that would have meant this is allowed, accepted. With more representation I would feel like that’s possible, that I could exist and I’m not crazy. Feeling crazy was such a common thing, thinking that those feelings I’ve got need to be fixed.
ELEANOR: Yeah, absolutely. I want to circle back to stereotypes, it is such a huge aspect of being bisexual having them usnicorn sterotype thrown at us, they sexualisation as the bisexual woman there’s something that alot of bisexual people are aware of in the hypersexualisation of bisexual women and the assumption that any women who is bisexual is essentially straight but is with women sometimes for the benefit of the male gaze whereas bisexual men are thought to be essentially gay and I think that what contributes to this is the fact that we exist in the patriachial society that views everything through the male gaze and being for men. That essentially women exist for the pleasure of men and that is where we get the stereotype - oh you are bisexual, let’s have a threesome. This is not to say that threesomes are not great, i love threesomes, I’m doing an entire episode on it soon but the assumption is that it’s about not that you could be a bisexual woman who is in a realtionship with a woman at this point in time but it’s not always about this needs to be witnessed which is something you spoke about in your experience as well feeling - ooh explore my sexuality within my relationships by being a good girlfriend and having a threesome, you sexuality, your exploration being witnessed by someone else.
ANNA: There are a few interesting things, one of them is being defined by your relationship and that's why so many times bisexual women in relationships with women, whether they are with one or with several, it doesn’t matter. Straightaway same sex so you’re probaly just gay, your confused and having a relationship with a man then straight away you are hetrosexual. So the default falls on one of the two. The monosex wins everytime. There’s no detail if you are the straight one with the women. By the way the women’s sexuality doesn’t matter you’re still gay, so it always falls on one of the two which is really bizarre. That’s why i love that phrase, I’m bisexual, all my relationships are bisexual in my eyes. I’m going to say that to myself more and of course this whole exploration of self is too very different things, it’s finding out that you have attraction to same sex and being in a relationship with someone who says great that you do, let’s have a threesome. Instead of saying something like - fantastic, what do you want to do, what do you want to know more? How can I help? Do you want to talk about it? Let’s celebrate it. All of those things instead of being bombarded with all the misunderstandings straight away. I agree with you that alot of those things they all come from the patriarchy, it a comes from a space that is held by cis white men that control everything and this is just another space of control because they need to control women so they stay in a place that is created for them. Of course everyone else is suffering because of that, everyone in the greater community and men themselves and men in power continue perpetrating that. So it makes sense that it’s happening, we embodied those stories and we believed them misunderstanding and we continue repeating it and others believe it and we don’t have the conversation about it so if someone was coming out as bisexual wouldn’t it be amazing to ask them - that’s wonderful, what does that mean to you? Can you tell me a bit more? Instead of bringing all those ideas and I didn’t have any of that. I had a similar experience of my ex was the same - fantastic, I would love to see you with a woman. I thought that it was a compliment at the time. I said, oh ok. Well of course it makes sense, I want to be with a woman, it was such a long time ago maybe I need to check, which was another thing that came to mind, I needed to prove it to myself so I needed to go and check but I’m in a relationship in such a loving option for someone to say - no you do it, i'll just watch without asking what I want , whether that’s ok and it feels and yet it also feels supportive. It’s ok, maybe I should try, it’s a breakdown of communication. This first feeling feels ignored and we just jump into doing some action. This is why I think sex is wonderful thing, such a big part of our lives and we need to talk about but it’s not necessarily represented in the form of sexuality and people can be in monoganous relationships and still be bisexual. People can be very sexually active and still be bisexual or not, people can be aesexual and not feel sexual desire. Sex is still an important part to them, they just don’t feel the desire, affection, sensation all the beautiful things. It's interesting that the sexless act and sexuality get so intertwined just by default. This has been a problem for a very long time because homosexuals have had the same problem when we want to call them more conservative. I did hear this during mardi gras period when everyone in that space, oh my god, they are probably super drunk and having sex with each other and I had the same conversation on the radio, the host was telling me that, I hear that everytime. Mardi gras period, everybody who has those ideas that are not questioned, not explored say you’ve probably got sore bums at the moment because it's mardi gras. It’s bigotry.
ELEANOR: It strips people of their humanity, theres a full spectrum of our experience, not just about sex it’s also the fact that we are real human beings who enjoy love, respect, communication all these things that you are not questioning as much in the straight community just having those labels thrown at them is very detrimental and that sex is something that we shouldn’t need to shy away and think that it is gross, bad or wrong. Something else that I wanted to briefly touch on is there is the assumption that bisexual people are hypersexual and the assumption that they are attracted to everybody and for me one thing that was confusing to me, I thought of course I think women are beautiful, but im not attracted to all women so I can’t be Bi right? SO I had to have a conversation with myself - you’re not attracted to all men and you’ve been straight for sometime right? It’s not that black and white, nobody is attracted to every single person of whatever gender that they happen to be attracted to, we are attracted to certain people. I want to talk about this idea, we are seen as promiscuous, slutty, unstable cheaters, people that are a flight risk just because we are attracted to multiple genders. Which when saying it sounds ridiculous. These are the stereotypes that get thrown at us but to bring a different issue, i wanted to talk about the intersection about bisexuality and non monogamy because this is something that I know in my experience, I know that this will be different for many people not everybody is going to resonate with non monogamy but for me I found that exploring in the past few years the world of non monogamy and realising that im a bisexual I had moment where i was oh, this really works well because I can have the stability and comfort of a committed relationship, or multiple committed relationships while feeling the freedom to express my sexuality without that assumption that I have to choose one way or another. I would like your thoughts, do you feel there is an intersection there? Do you think that is harmful or do you think that is helpful?
ANNA: A very interesting question. I think that of course sexuality in the types of relationships I don't’ think they are interdependent of one another, I think they are intertwined. I feel a person can be bisexual and monogomous and bisexual and polyamourous or open or have either styles of relationships and to be honest I looked into the historical information around relationships and how it used to be in a tribe as one big family with many partners and not so far away as stone age but roman times and times before it mentioned greeks and mentioned where relationships were more based on mutual benefit and very often will include other parts as well because there would be benefits, a bigger family, you can protect your home better, you can rely on someone for mental health support and it makes sense to me to have multiple different partners because I realised at some point in my life, friends are kind of like that as well. Every single friend of mine serves a different function in my life. I really love them for different things. I didn’t realise how different those things were. Some of them I go to because I need to cry, some I need to go because I can borrow money from them and we have awesome conversations others would passionately argue but we connect on so many other levels that we love because we stay up all night and discuss stuff about space and science. They are so different I realised that years ago I tried to bring together all those people in one group and they are just too different, to coexist. It was difficult to have them in that group. As a migrant I don’t have friends from school, it’s always individuals that came into my life and in society when people come together. That reminded me that micro senility also allows me my other needs as well it allows me to connect with different people and if I have really close friendship at what point can I say that we have a relationship and alot of the time sex comes into that this was especially discussed during the lockdowns because you could visit your partners if you had sexual relationships but you couldn’t if you were just friends. How do you prove it? Why does that define a relationship? That’s why it’s just expanded it for me and people did tell me because im bisexual, I’ve actually always said it out loud even though I wound’t claim it. This was a disclaimer in Russia, you can look gay just dont say you’re gay and they’re always a safe place to be, i think that’s why we have so many drag queens in Russia but we just call them singers. That’s what male singers look. I remember always saying that I don’t understand this whole thing, why do I need to marry someone, why can’t I just live with four of my friends? Maybe I have sexual relations with two of them. Maybe I don’t with two others, maybe I have with all of them why don’t we all live together, it just makes more sense because I don’t like cooking but she does and he likes cleaning and he can fix my car. Fabulous, let’s make a unity pact. It really makes sense, but it might not work for someone because I don’t know what’s happening inside their head, we don’t know what their experiences are like but it totally makes sense to me so if bisexualities somehow made me realise that yes please find the fault, if not, just a bonus.
ELEANOR: Amazing. That concept would be challenging for a lot of people and at the end of the day whatever relationship style, sexuality, what labels resonate with you I think that’s the most important thing to be able to have the comfort the claim what resonates for you, what feels supported in that. Thank you for speaking with me today. It’s been such a wonderful conversation. Your books, Pride and Prejudice I’m going to link this in the show notes, I highly recommend that everybody reads this book especially if you are questioning your sexuality it’s a really beautiful read. Thank you so much for joining us Anna.
ANNA: Thank you, it has really been wonderful talking to you. Thanks so much.
ELEANOR: My pleasure.
